Most of you know I authored Brining 101:

Brining 101

With so many "briners" here thanks to Chris' info on Brining, I thought I'd throw out some information I'm working on for Brining 202 -- the sequel and get your feedback/comments/questions.

I get lots of questions about doing "enhanced" birds, of those that have already been injected. So, from a food science perspective, I'm trying to give out real information and gain your questions and comments about doing this.

Can I brine an Enhanced Bird?

There has been a lot of discussion over the years about right/wrong and like so many things, people will have their personal preference.

Here's my take. Sorry it's long, just trying to talk a little food science and educate.

It will work, but....

Keep in mind, what makes brining work is Osmosis.

Osmosis is the passage of water (or salt water for brining purposes) from a region of high water concentration through a semi-permeable membrane to a region of low concentration

Because whatever we're brining has a low concentration (meat) that is what drives brining to do as well. One factor that affects it's efficiency appears to be the salinity.

The salinity inside will be XX% and the brine will be XX% (numbers will vary) thus determining which region has higher water concentration. Osmosis means as long as the % inside is lower than the outside, then the brine (outside) will exchange with the solution inside. You can't just soak an item in a tub of water and it takes on the water, because the salinity/solution inside the bird has to be less than the salinity/solution outside the bird (brine).

So, with that logic, if the enhanced bird is already saturated, it CAN'T take on anything from the brine because it won't accept something from the lower percentage of the brine.

If the enhanced bird has a lower percentage and the brine has a higher, then the brine will work. But if it's concentration is high, then likely the brine won't really have an effect at all, as the bird is already saturated (especially on the highly enhanced birds)

The only thing I've not been able to determine is the % of salinity in the brine and the bird, and the true impact, but talking with food scientists, they tell me the above two cases are "supposed" to work. So I have't come up with an exact point where you should/shouldn't brine an enhanced bird.

For me.

I've experimented a lot and if it's 15% or less, I'll brine it normal. Same time, same solution, same flavors. Family and friends haven't found any issue with normal brine times, affects on texture or taste.

Over 15% I'd say don't by the bird at all and don't brine, you're paying for a LOT of liquid. You may think it's cheaper, but look at the real costs. Now, what I'd really like to find out is if you can decrease the salinity of an enhanced bird (say a 25%) by soaking it in water and drawing out some, but that's a test for another day.

What I usually recommend is to practice. I've tried to research, test, talk, as much as I can about brining and create a spot with as much info and then let you decide. Personally, a lot of people talk bad about brining but don't understand the science part of it but they're 100% correct, if it doesn't work for them, that's okay.

NEVER wait until the big day to do your first bird. Get one, try it and see how it works for you. The prices are relatively cheap. Shoot, I'm doing one this weekend for practice/testing.

Question: Have any of you brined an enhanced bird, what was your take?

Smokin'

I always brine a water enhanced turkey. A water enhanced turkey, no matter how much water has been added, is not going to have a salt concentration that much over normal saline, or about .9% NaCl by weight. My brines are between 5% and 10% NaCl by weightl. Because of that salt from the brine is going to enter the meat, regardless of how much water has been added previously. The increase in taste from salt, particularly with the breast is always apparent to me. However, I always add something in addition to salt, like sugar, vinegar, assertive seasonings, like clove or allspice, and that adds to the ultimate taste as well.

would you mind expanding on the point that a brine has to be saltier that the meat in order to work?

If that were the case, then when the meat reaches equilibrium with the brine, it should have less water, but more salt.

What are your thoughts on including phosphates in a brine?

I understand they can act as a buffer, raising the pH, and making the brine more effective.

Does the volume of brine matter?

It would seem that a small volume of brine might change more in terms of salinity as it reaches equilibrium with the meat.

Good questions, let me see what I can answer

quote:

would you mind expanding on the point that a brine has to be saltier that the meat in order to work?
If that were the case, then when the meat reaches equilibrium with the brine, it should have less water, but more salt.

the concept is that Osmosis will attempt to achieve a state of equilibrium between the salty (brine) and less salty (bird), that's just the process of osmosis (check out Brining 101 for more specifics)

quote:

What are your thoughts on including phosphates in a brine? I understand they can act as a buffer, raising the pH, and making the brine more effective.

Now you're asking something I'm not sure the answer. I haven't really seen discussions about making a brine "more effective". I'm not sure if it would or wouldn't since Brines are on the base side of the PH, making it more base doesn't necessarily mean more effective. I think it might not be so much as a phosphate to make it more effective, but working to help the proteins retain more moisture (if you know about FAB products that phosphates are there to help the meat retain more moisture (hold onto the liquid better) but that works for those items because they're not really brines, just liquids. In that case, Phosphates might help other liquids "stick.

quote:

Does the volume of brine matter?
It would seem that a small volume of brine might change more in terms of salinity as it reaches equilibrium with the meat.

well, let me work thought this one with you see what we come up with.

Volumne no, salinity yes. The overall % of salinity is what matters in terms of the brine. Example a lower percentage of salt, say 1/4 cup per gallon, just really won't work as effective or as well as 1 cup per gallon (getting back to Osmosis and Proteins being denatured). There MIGHT be an impact if you don't have enough brine for the item being done. If the water exchanges with the brine, then the brine will get to be diluted over time. Given the times and amounts we're talking about in turkey, chicken etc, I don't think it's important. Where it might matter would be if you tried to reuse a brine, it would continue to become diluted; but I'd never do this for Food Safety reasons.

Hope that helps.

Nobody have any experience with Enhanced birds? Looking for thoughts feedback if you've done it or not.

quote:

Now you're asking something I'm not sure the answer. I haven't really seen discussions about making a brine "more effective". I'm not sure if it would or wouldn't since Brines are on the base side of the PH, making it more base doesn't necessarily mean more effective. I think it might not be so much as a phosphate to make it more effective, but working to help the proteins retain more moisture (if you know about FAB products that phosphates are there to help the meat retain more moisture (hold onto the liquid better) but that works for those items because they're not really brines, just liquids. In that case, Phosphates might help other liquids "stick.

Interesting. I know Jim Minion discusses how naturally occurring phosphates tend to dissipate during rigor mortis and an injection that includes phosphates assist the meat in recovering to a pre-rigor state.

I also read about adding phosphates to buffer the brine. I'm thinking now that this might have been a remedy if something acidic was use to make the brine (orange juice, etc), since acidic brines do not work as well.

smokin, here's the turkey I'm doing this year. It's from Shady Brook Farms, All Natural, Premium Basting. On the front in little letters on the bottom it says it contains up to eight percent basting solution. Does that mean salt? But on the back listed in the ingredients table it lists Sodium230mg 10%. This is the same bird we cooked last year. I brined it and it didn't seem to come out salty and was very moist. It also cooked in a third of the time and we had to leave it in the oven for longer because it cooked so fast the guests weren't even at the house yet. Would brining cause it to cook fast? I also never checked the ingredients on the label. My brine was 1 cup diamond crystal salt and 1 cup brown sugar with 1 gallon of water. Should I not brine it this year?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave L.:
Should I not brine it this year?

Yeah, that's brined, "basting" solution has to be identified there somewhere, it's the law, they just don't make it easy to figure out.

If it's the one you did last year, I say do it the same way.

I'm pretty comfortable brining "enhanced" birds as long as the % is beow a certain point.

10% maybe a little more is the max I'd go. Any more and you're wasting your money since you're paying for salt water.

Thanks, I think this year we have to allow for the faster cooking. I couldn't believe how fast it cooked last year. Another question. If I crushed up some garlic and put that in the brine would it give the turkey some flavor? Also, how about dried herbs and spices? I also have fresh tyme(lemon and purple) and basil growing in our sun porch. About how much should I use for a 22lb. turkey and what other kind of herbs and spices should I use? We always had just plain turkey so my wife kind of freaks out when I want to jazz it up.

Ok, so I picked up a couple frozen turkeys that are enhanced with up to 7% solution. Would it be worthwhile to brine these birds? I plan on roasting them in my smoker at 325*.

quote:

Originally posted by Pat McCreight:
Ok, so I picked up a couple frozen turkeys that are enhanced with up to 7% solution. Would it be worthwhile to brine these birds? I plan on roasting them in my smoker at 325*.

I'm curious about this too as I have an 8% 16 lb bird thawing...

Bill

I have a 3% and was wondering the same thing thx....