Joey McManus won The Masters yesterday. I competed against him two weeks ago. That is the equivalent of me being in the same golf tournament as Tiger Woods.

I know that contest organizers want the highest level of competition that can be achieved. And I assume that for KCBS the theory is that you cannot learn to cook better if you do not compete against the best. I disagree, as long as there is an objective scoring standard - be it par on a golf course or a KCBS score - there will be general trend to improve.

But for us agate type also-rans, paying a $250 entry fee for a contest that we have no chance of winning money won't happen too many times. Even with $25,000 in total cash prizes.

Should KCBS events include developmental competitions, limited to new teams or teams with previous best scores below some standard? It wouldn't even have to be a separate event. I believe that this would be a better way to encourage continued participation by us bottom feeders.

Any thoughts from our smoking PGA Tour Pros?

I like the idea of winning against the best. JMHO. We have only one GC and that was at a non sanctioned event, feels good but not the same.
But we will cook at any comp close to home, and bottom feeding doesnt scare us!

Dale - I think we are defining bottom feeders differently. For you it means a chance to compete against lesser competition. I meant the teams that are in the bottom third of the results, perennial losers.

Jim

You are probably right about us thinking about this in different ways. I go into every comp thinking we are going to win. If i didnt think we had a chance to win, we wouldnt enter. I can see your point though and the idea is very interesting. Anything to make competition grow is alright with me.

Joey Mack, Mike Wozniak, Scottie Johnson, Randy Twyford, Mike Davis, Kevin Bevington, Johnny Trigg, Byron Chism, etc are all world class cooks. However in Competition BBQ you have to have some luck. I've been in some contests with the above people. Yes, on a few occasions I've beaten them. I'll always remember the time I beat Scottie in a coin flip for a 1st place pork. It was the a thrill.

I am of the theory that to be good you have to compete with the best. However, the best, like Tiger Woods, can be beaten. The thing they do best is cook consistently good Q. That's the thing we all have to do is cook consistently good Q. Beating them will happen.

There are competitions that have a Back Yard or Patio division. You could enter them. There are a lot of contests that have them. Then again there are strictly amateur back your contest around.

You have to think you are going to win or you are beaten already. Don't let them live in your head. Don't believe that they are going to beat you. If you do it will be a self full filling wish.

Steve - Your point about backyard comps is what got me thinking about this. I participated in Mike Goethel's Rib Throwdown Saturday and felt like I had a chance. Then I came home to read about Joe's big win. I wondered why I even bothered to enter the two other competitions I did this year and last.

I thought then, and know now, that I had no chance against these regular winners. I do not know what judges score well, do not have my cooking down to a science, and am not consistent. I enter in order to receive a KCBS score and use it to learn what works and what doesn't.

Beating the half-dozen or more World Class competition teams that enter is not a realistic goal. The same goes for all the fire fighters, Lions, Jaycees, and other local guys who enter to support their hometown event. To have a chance to compete with my own level of competition would add much to the experience.

Given enough strokes, I could beat Tiger Woods (8 per hole may be enough), but KCBS competitions are not handicapped. I wouldn't want them to be, excellence deserves to win. But being rewarded for winning the JV game also has a place.

There is always the fun, entertainment, comradery, overnight coffee sharing, the late night sing-a-longs, etc. that seem to make it worth while. The socializing with the public is a big part of it also. If it wasn't fun, Pat and I wouldn't do it as often as we do. Probably wouldn't do it at all.

The thrill of the call factors in there somewhere. Maybe its the desire to be in the spotlight that drives some of us.

You're probably talking about the cost vs the win money. Yes it is expensive. Pat figures our trip to Sparta cost us about $800. 2 nights in a motel, gas was a big chunk, meat, meals etc. We got 2 calls and won a total of $35. You can't go into a contest telling yourself that you have to win to make money. You'll never do it. You tell yourself that you are going to win because you are the best cook out there.

Once it is no longer fun we'll stop doing contests. Then again there is the bragging rights about some contests like the '08 Winter Burn. Its a great story to tell but would we do it again? I really don't think so but, never say never.

I don't drink so I can't go out and spend tons of money drinking in a bar or lounge. I have to blow my money somewhere

Jim,

I see your point and I like it.

The entry costs for most of us back yarders are certainly out of this world, I can't even see myself paying 200 or 300 dollars of my own cash. Sure, I'd love to try my hand at some comps, for the entertainment of it all as much as the comp itself. It'd be fun if there were some "reduced entry costs until you actually win money program". But, then again, maybe kcbs already has more than enough teams (in their mind) and don't really care.

Todd

After some thought about this, if you arent ready to go against the best, just cook in the backyard division. That has to be fun too!
But in reality, if you can build nice boxes and cook good food, you can win against any team. At least in a category or two. The real reason the same teams get called is they are consistent. That is my teams problem, we cook 2 meats great, and slip on the other 2. Every d@mn time!

One day we will get them all together. Its what drives us.
I know many teams take classes and have good results instantly. Thats great and we think that its totally fair. Maybe that would be a good idea for some of those who are having scoring problems. It is a known fact that many new teams are doing real well after taking a class. We kick the idea around about taking a class every month or so, but $500 a person buys alot of practice meat. And we practice all the time.

We have decided we want to be self taught. Since its a game, we think winning on our own will be just a little sweeter. I saw a "teacher" on another forum who wanted to say congrats to his students. Thats fine too but that is not what we want. If you read carefully to these boards, you can learn almost everything you need to get a call. jmho

quote:

I do not know what judges score well, do not have my cooking down to a science, and am not consistent.

I think you should work on correcting these 3 areas and then you really can beat the big guys. If you don't know what scores well, you should take a judging class and judge several contests. For cooking, you need to practice, practice, practice. I did my first comp in May, and have done 2 more since. My scores have gone up considerably because I practice one or more meats at least once a week. I have improved my timing quite a bit, keep detailed notes, and I now have a solid game plan for comps. It just takes time.

I remember pulling up to my first comp, seeing the big rigs, and thinking "I'm out of my league." We didn't get a call that day, our best was a 12th place, and looking back, most of what I turned in wasn't that good. But we practiced for a couple of months and did much better in our second competition. My third comp didn't score as well as the second, but I felt like I improved all of my meats. I got a 2nd place call the last 2 contests, covering my expenses.

Ribs are killing me right now, so I made 3 slabs over the weekend testing different rubs and cooking techniques. Doing the same thing next weekend, preparing for my final contest of the year.

Can I beat some of the teams mentioned here? You bet, I have in different categories. Can I beat them consistently overall, no, not yet. Experience is needed to learn how to react to different things during the comp - ribs done early, not getting done, etc. Experience teaches you how to not only set a great plan, but how to react when that great plan fails due to weather, bad cuts, etc.

Don't give up, just keep working on it.

I love it when I hear that you guys are all thinking of us in the backs of your heads... We've won and we haven't even cooked anything...

for the record, get out and see where you stack up. If you think I am going to run and hide from one of the top teams, you're nuts. That is the same attitude that you should have. Just don't talk the smack like some here do. As that also motivates us even more... Especially when you talk smack and you don't deliver...

But the teams that win are no different than you "backyarders"... We were all rookies at one time too. We also put our pants on one leg at a time...

This little World of ours requires both skill and a lot of luck. One we can control, the other we can't... So on any given day you can have teams come up and take one...

I agree with Pat and Steve,(and Scottie) and the others that say you have to compete against the best to improve. If it were set up as suggested here, where you might have, for lack of a better word, an intermediate class, I personally would not feel the same sense of accomplishment when my name was called.

As for the money issue, my wife and I choose to look at the entry fees and other costs as our vacation expenses, as the only vacation days either of us has taken this year were for the purposes of competing.

I was so elated at having our names called in our fourth comp this year that I didn't hear them call Pat's (congrats on the 2nd place pork Pat!)

When you can say your product has beaten one or more of the big names (CancerSucksChicago.com, Doctor Porkenstein, QUAU, Buttrub.com, and Ulcer Acres, to name a few) you can truly feel that you're improving, and even if you're not getting calls, that's something when you're new. We have placed ahead of all the teams I've mentioned at one time or another in one or two categories. Are we as good as they are? Not even close!!! But to be in contention makes it worth the time and expense to us.

I think Pat said it best...practice, practice, practice!

Keep in mind that a lot of the "big guys" started as "Little guys". I cooked next to Alex (Dr Porkenstein) when he won his first grand in 2006. I also remember when Joey came to a comp to say hi because he was thinking about competing. Me, I don't compete enough to make it to the big time - it is truly a hobby for me.

I think the best advice on doing well in a contest is to cook a lot of contests. And I mean the pro divisions, not the backyard contests.

I agree with Scottie...on any given day, anyone can win. Sometimes it does happen that the little guys get the breaks. Keep the faith. Regards.

I agree wtih alot of the comments so far.

Every team no matter how good now had to start at the bottom just like I did. Over time and contests we all improve.

What Mark says is the way I see it as well. In order to get to the top ten consistently you have to cook a bunch of contest a year. I have done 15 or 16 contest over 4 years so I don't do enough compared to the true pro's. I know several teams that finish in the top ten regularly but they cook 20 or 30 contests a year. I don't expect to beat the better teams every week because I don't do enough contests but when I do beat them it's nice.

I enjoy cooking against the pros and I don't let them scare me, they motivate me to do better and improve, just to hang out with all the great people, good cook or not, is enough for me, I just don't have the time to invest in it like I want to.

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: JRPfeff,

Ha! Ha ! LOL ROFLMAO

I'm far from being a big-timer. Thanks for the compliment. I'm just somebody that has a big ego that knows he cooks better than everyone else. Damn! Its hard cooking down to KCBS standards!

I would suggest, if you want to get in the game but don't want the hassle of the work, join a team as a part time member. That way you still get the fun, thrill and excitement with less cost, time and effort.

How does that joke go? Q: How do you get to Carnegie Hall? A: Practice man, practice.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Abrams:
I would suggest, if you want to get in the game but don't want the hassle of the work, join a team as a part time member. That way you still get the fun, thrill and excitement with less cost, time and effort.

Um. I think that was my original point. There are a lot of us who don't have the time or inclination for the big time. We may get there someday, but aren't ready now.

That's why NASCAR has the Nationwide and Craftsman Truck Series.

Okay. Though my opinions are far from being valued--publicly, anyway--by comp people let's call a spade a spade: KCBS has scant 'standards' and that is its nemesis. It, and the competitors who choose to take the plunge, make it by playing the comp game. Yes, money is involved and there is more than a certain cachet to being able to affix 'award winning' to one's own product, but let's not confuse figuring out what the judges will buy as being top scoring with what is actually the best turn-ins. What wins might be very good or even excellent product--but it might not be (let's face it: many turn-ins are demonstrably cooked, sauced and presented precisely as they are because it is what the competitor feels (or has figured out) the judges will respond to, not because the competitor feels that is is in actuality best); many, many competitors (and, yes, ones that win) don't particularly love the food they cook at comps.

I applaud competitors for their vim and tenacity. I know many. At the risk of alienating those who I both admire and value, let's not pretend that KCBS has some specified criteria, some clear standards, that comp Q needs to meet. They do not. It is why 'figuring out' still goes on, why the adulteration of food is tolerated--even required, why what I am saying is whispered about--to those that pose no threat.

If I had a buck for every time I've heard I'm not ready for my first contest

Jump in with both feet ASAP. You'll be amazed how much you'll learn if you walk and talk.

Take a judging class and judge a few contests.

Take a BBQ class.

Don't be in a hurry to buy a new smoker the WSM has taken first place in everything.

There are regional variations that affect presentation and flavor profiles.

Go Do It

AS for Kevin's comments I could not agree more. At a basic level every contest entry I've won with has been sauced. At home, in my restaurant and at my BBQ schools I sauce nothing. Our motto is We Smoke It, You Sauce It.

quote:

Originally posted by JRPfeff:
That's why NASCAR has the Nationwide and Craftsman Truck Series.

Actually those are the mid tier events they also have much less expensive locals series that are the real training grounds. But BBQ contests are hard to make interesting for TV and even in person very very few give the public what they want (lots of BBQ from many teams to eat)